Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Discussion about Overture but not bugs.
Merv
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Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Merv »

While I have the utmost respect for Don’s engineering skills and inventive talents, I find it very disappointing that he has not chosen to communicate with the faithful. We (or maybe just I) have no idea what’s happening with Overture. While patience is a virtue there are limits. Please Don, give us some hope or expectation of what good things lie in store for us loyal and patient Overture users.
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by chato »

I totally agree…
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Dean K. »

Merv wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:34 am We (or maybe just I) have no idea what’s happening with Overture.
Hi Merv and Chato,

It's not just you. The best we know is that Don plans to lead us to an Overture 6...and yes...unfortunately we don't know more about how and when that will take shape just yet.

Whatever the path to Overture 6 is, though, it's safe to assume that it will include refining issues from 5 and incorporating new features.

I think regarding disappointments...my best guess is that this all stems from quite some time ago with what started as constructive and well-intended objectives, necessities, and criticisms...eventually snowballing into a web of complaints, inflammatory comments, backbiting, meanderings, and toxicity...leaving us all with what we have now.

When I returned to this, I had hoped that things had not gone that far, and as a community, we could turn things around. We are nothing and have nothing without our leader.

I think at the heart of all this... is simply a community that knows how much potential this program has and desperately wants and needs to see it continue to develop.

Don has told us the remaining hope that there will be a 6...as you have heard me repeat ad nauseam and like everyone else, dying for.

I'm sure Don would let us know if and when anything was to change...for now though... it seems waiting is what we have.

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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by DrLeonard »

Dean's conciliatory remarks are the best response to this issue. We have occasionally heard from Don in the recent time period so we know he's still there. Let us not"bug" him or this conversation or will be of no use.
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by olivnote »

I think there will be a version 6 directly, but version 5 will remain as it is, without corrections .
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Dean K. »

All we know for sure is there is a path to 6...and Don will have to be the one to reveal what that is and either confirm or dispel the speculation when the time comes.

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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by dko22 »

I must say, I do feel for Don. Overture was at one time without question the best notation software with its combination of easy to use notation and playback features. It was also a forum where people could exchange their own works written using the software and I remember a number of enjoyable exchanges over this. Times are moving on, however. I know of a number of ardent Overture fans who moved across to Dorico and that's to say nothing of the increasingly sophisticated offering from Musescore which of course is free. It's difficult for one man, however brilliant, to keep going in view of these developments. Perhaps Overture 6 will indeed swing the pendulum back. But communication and indeed support is one part of the equation and the less one hears, the more people might decide to move on. Perhaps Don is simply too busy with the new version to give the forum his full attention in which case all will perhaps be forgiven when the results are seen. I hope so.
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by PeteFine »

I believe dko22 has summed it up. We all want communication, whether with OV5 or OV6. The title of this thread, "Patience..." is important. We were promised a huge upgrade in OV5 years ago and, not having received it or any assurance of it, it is difficult to look forward to a whole new version. I love Overture and have used it since its inception. Communication, and professionsal respect for those of us who have stuck with it and made constructive suggestions and bug posts which have led to improvements, is badly needed.
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Dean K. »

PeteFine wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 2:24 pm
We were promised a huge upgrade in OV5 years ago and, not having received it or any assurance of it, it is difficult to look forward to a whole new version.

Don has told us that there will be an Overture 6 and that's all the assurance we have to rest upon at the moment. Of course not knowing when and how we get there is discouraging and makes things more difficult. I can see why you feel the way you do but there are many of us who are still looking forward and have chosen to keep hope, faith, and respect for Don and this program.

A whole new version? I'm not sure what you mean but if you are referring to how Don rewrote the entire program from 4 to get us to 5, I think it's safe to say he is not doing that again. But even if he did, it wouldn’t bother me. And just to repeat... whatever the path to Overture 6 is, it's also safe to say it will include refining issues from 5 and incorporating new features.

Unfortunately, as David pointed out because so much time has passed, we've all had to find our ways around the waiting...by now, most of us know what those options are...which by comparison only further confirms why we love Overture and why we need it and would love to see it continue to be developed.

PeteFine wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 2:24 pm
Communication, and professionsal respect for those of us who have stuck with it and made constructive suggestions and bug posts which have led to improvements, is badly needed.
No doubt and the thing about respect is... it needs to go both ways.

Over the many years here, there have been silences and lulls, but nothing quite like this. So it begs the question... why?

The "why" seems important to me and to remember or pay attention to how we all arrived where we are now. And "all" also includes the numerous supportive, grateful, helpful, less vocal, or non-vocal, on or off-forum users who also love Overture, submit bugs, and constructive suggestions, contributed to improvements, and continue to.

I had no clue things had got this bad on the forum till I returned here to a lot of toxicity and issues thrown my way... which to be perfectly clear... means an overabundance of negativity, people making false accounts, trolling, spamming, antagonizing, flaming, and attempting to provoke Don and the development of the program for responses. It clearly divided things and went well beyond anything helpful, constructive, or positive to the community and is what can be surmised as the reason for pushing the developer and many of its members away.

I am not accusing or singling you out Pete, I know you are a loyal user and love the program and however understandable or justified...it's unfortunate that other people who took your stance and dug in so adamantly then decided to go to war with Don and take things too far. As a result, there has been collateral damage to many of us outside of that conflict. People who remain grateful and respectful to Don and Overture and hopeful towards the future. So Don's response, or lack thereof, and the choices people from your position took affected all of us.

Who can disagree with professional courtesy and respect? Knowing what I do now, I can understand the need from both Don's and your positions in this regard. So I just really hope you guys and Don can see past digging in, the need to be right, and bury the hatchet soon. Like it or not, we are all in this together and sitting on an incredible program with remarkable potential.

One last thing, on a personal note, despite what various people have projected on me as a composer and admin here, I have no vested interest and do not work for Sonic Scores. As a longtime and loyal user of the program, I was blessed to be made an admin and to be a part of the Alpha testing mainly on Overture 5's integration of VST3, VEPro, Network Audio across multiple slave systems and exporting audio. My only motivations for taking the time I have to say these things ad nauseum is from a profound respect and gratitude for Don and his talents and to see this community get past the bs, come together, and Overture continues to develop.

So, if you're reading this Don, thank you again for all you have done and I'm dying to see what might be in store for us whenever and however that unfolds. I've done my best here to try and help people continue using the program and communicate what I think would or could have been most helpful to move forward together in a more positive direction.

My best,

~Dean

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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by PeteFine »

Dean,
As usual your post is intelligent, fair, and level-headed. I have, at times, been openly upset about the lack of communication and professional coutesy in comminicating why a badly need, promised upgrade has been years of waiting and still not delivered. However, unlike some others, I have never said anything disrespectful towards Don and have, on many posts, praised his accomplishments. He has even helped me through emails outside the Forum and I am grateful.
Years ago,when communications from him were frequent, and fixes and updates were common, bug reports and suggestions were what we mainly saw in this Forum. It wasn't until his exceedingly long disapperance and years after a "coming soon" was posted with the list of fixes, that posts started coming in that were over-the-top and praising other programs. If that caused Don to have less desire to help us out or follow through on his promises (or at least explain why it was taking this long) I could understand that. But I believe you have your timeline backwards. The nastiness from some vocal forum users came after the stoppage from Don, not before it. Before it, people would occassionally express there concerns about bugs, etc.
OV5 is not complete. At present, these are some very serious bugs that most us have learned to live with. Some of the workarounds are exceedingly tedious.
Does an OV6 sound exciting? Yes. But is there, at present, any indication that bug fixes and upgrades will be more frequent than where we are at with OV5 right now? None of us really know. Like you, I hope and pray that the answer is yes. Being that this is the only OV Forum, I understand the frustration occassionally expressed. It could all have been avoided so easily with simple communication, and that part is sqarely on Don.

If anything I ever said did indeed cause more delay or resetment and a desire for "revenge" by Don, I am truly sorry. (I don't believe my posts were ever anything more than impatience).

Thank you for your thoughts and your faith. I am hoping that I will see some signs that enable me to have the same faith. If not, what a terrible shame that a notation program as sophisticated and amazing as OV5 will never be completed.
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Dean K. »

Thanks for the kind words and for sharing some of your supportive and heartfelt experiences Pete.
PeteFine wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:46 pm It wasn't until his exceedingly long disapperance and years after a "coming soon" was posted with the list of fixes, that posts started coming in that were over-the-top and praising other programs. If that caused Don to have less desire to help us out or follow through on his promises (or at least explain why it was taking this long) I could understand that.
It's thoughtful...but strikes me more as a possible rumor or gossip. I think regardless of the praise or reproach of any program...Don has been dealing with that kind of thing for years and knows like we do what Overture's inherent value and potential are in comparison. We know why we love it and want to see its development continue...so does he.
PeteFine wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:46 pm If anything I ever said did indeed cause more delay or resetment and a desire for "revenge" by Don, I am truly sorry. (I don't believe my posts were ever anything more than impatience).
Thanks, Pete, again really thoughtful. Impatience can be understood, but the behavior I mentioned to you earlier clearly went past impatience. That is where I can see the resentment and vindictiveness you speak of...but not coming from Don. He has never said as much but if it was me... I might read hurt and disappointment into it and all the bs just kept compounding and pushing things further out.
PeteFine wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:46 pm But I believe you have your timeline backwards. The nastiness from some vocal forum users came after the stoppage from Don, not before it. Before it, people would occassionally express there concerns about bugs, etc.
I know I was not a part of the complete timeline of events here so I apologize if I am missing something... but where I am coming from really can't be backward, because I'm simply sharing what I observed and experienced from the time I returned.

The concerns and pleas I've been trying to convey have less to do with "who started it" or pointing fingers at one another and more to do with not repeating and exacerbating the problem...hopefully moving past it.

Unfortunately, the rest of your post is all too familiar and we're trying to do the best we can with what we have. No doubt it would be tragic if development was never to continue but unless Don says otherwise, there is going to be an Overture 6.

So I've done my best here guys. I just recommend trying to keep the forum as welcoming, positive, helpful to others, and non-toxic as possible in the meantime. I apologize if I hijacked your thread Merv.

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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by PeteFine »

No hijacking was done. Thanks for the positive vibes, Dean. Happy composing to all of you.
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Dean K. »

👍 🙏

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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Merv »

I assure you that no apology is needed, Dean. Patience and communication were the buzzwords of my initial post – both being endeavours for any successful relationship – marriage, business, friendship. My relationship with Overture is rock solid as is my belief that Don will come through with his promises. Patience is needed on our part, and communication would be nice on Don’s part. That’s all that I meant to say.
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Re: Patience is a virtue - but with limits

Post by Dean K. »

Thanks Merv, all good. 👌👍

My best,
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