Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

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DrLeonard
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Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by DrLeonard »

In a piece I have written, there is a place where what appears to be a slur (or tie) is preventing the following note, in the next bar, from playing back. I have not been able to remove it with the eraser tool or delete key. It shows up in all eight voices but the cursor can't grab it in any of them. I tried deleting the two measures and adding the notes back in, but it returned. The colored box in the attachment shows the location of the mark (whatever it is) but it is invisible unless the cursor hovers over it. Does anyone know how to get rid of this so the first note of the second measure will sound?
sample.jpg
sample.jpg (34.33 KiB) Viewed 61 times
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TenorAlan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

Hi, RC,

If I had the score file, I could work on this.

If you don't want to expose the whole work, perhaps you could make an excerpt (if it exhibited the problem).

Happy Thanksgiving.

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by DrLeonard »

Sure, Alan, here's the complete score. The problem I described is in the trombone part, bars 24-25.
Suite_for_Trombone_and_Piano.ovex
(253.75 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

Hi, RC,
DrLeonard wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:32 pm Sure, Alan, here's the complete score. The problem I described is in the trombone part, bars 24-25.Suite_for_Trombone_and_Piano.ovex
Thanks.

Here, I can't see the "ghost tie" (I've moved the mouse all over that region), and the following C4 in M25 plays fine.

So I'm just baffled.

What is the best way to see the ghost tie in your situation?

Note that I do not have ASO here, so when I tried to play that track, I set the track to play through GM player 1 (with the GM sound map, but also a soundmap that is the ASO sound map but patched so it will work in a MIDI context). That may have some effect on the situation.

Is it possible that this mark is actually on another track, or in another system, and is just somehow grossly graphically displaced? (I admit I don't see any credible candidate for such mischief!)

A nice work!

Best regards,

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by Merv »

Clicking on the 16th rest in m.24 makes the slur/tie appear, but for the life of me I can’t get rid of it.

If you increase the number of measures on that system that odd slur/tie goes away, but I’m sure that’s not much consolation to you as it crowds that system. If you decrease the number of measures on that system the slur/tie seems to go away, but if you click on the 16th rest in m.24 it reappears in m.25. Before listening to the complete work, I adjusted the overall trombone volume in Kontakt’s output pane so that ASO’s trombone stood out more prominently in the mix, then I listened to a fine composition. For an all-in-one package Amadeus does a pretty nice job doesn’t it?

Alan’s theory is probably correct about a misplaced/displaced notational element. The trick is to find its source.

I’m on 5.6.3-2 on Win10.
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by DrLeonard »

Thanks, Alan. I wrote it for my grandson in high school who plays the trombone, but so far he hasn't attempted it! Anyway, I had another copy of the I. Allegro which didn't have the mystery slur, but when I pasted it behind this one to replace it the slur reappeared at the same spot in the new version, with the same effect. Then I tried changing to the MIDI GM Player trombone (and also changed the piano) but the mystery slur is still there, so apparently it's not an ASO problem. Why the missing note plays in your system but not mine is curious. Any other suggestions?
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

DrLeonard wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:00 am Hi, RC,

Thanks, Alan. I wrote it for my grandson in high school who plays the trombone, but so far he hasn't attempted it! Anyway, I had another copy of the I. Allegro which didn't have the mystery slur, but when I pasted it behind this one to replace it the slur reappeared at the same spot in the new version, with the same effect. Then I tried changing to the MIDI GM Player trombone (and also changed the piano) but the mystery slur is still there, so apparently it's not an ASO problem. Why the missing note plays in your system but not mine is curious. Any other suggestions?
No, but maybe something will come to me tonight while I'm asleep. (It will manifest while I'm brushing my teeth in the morning.)

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

Hi, Merv,
Merv wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:45 am Clicking on the 16th rest in m.24 makes the slur/tie appear, but for the life of me I can’t get rid of it.
Ah, the same here. Good to know.

If I delete the rest, then the ghostly thing appears steadily. Well, sort of.

I'll do some more on it in the morning.

I'll look into the decompressed OVEX file and see what is there.

Thanks.

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

Hi, RC, Merv,

I find that if I pull one more measure into the system that originally comprised M22-25, so that it now comprises M22-26, and so the tie between the two C4 half notes does not have to reach into the next system, then I am no longer able to make the ghost tie appear.

I find that if, with the current measure-system arrangement in place, I delete the tie between the C4 two half notes (which had reached into the next system), then I am no longer able to make the ghost tie appear.

I find that if I pull one more measure into the system that originally comprised M22-25, so that it now comprises M22-26, and delete the tie between the C4 two half notes, then replace the tie, and finally push M26 out of that system (so the tie again reaches into the following system), I can make the ghost tie appear.

So there may be some bug that accompanies a tie reaching into the next system.

I will do some more research on this as today's schedule allows.

Happy Thanksgiving all!

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

In my next exercise, I added a measure just before M25 and put four quarter notes in it. I arranged the number of measures in the system so the tie between the two C4 half notes again wrapped into the next system.

If I click on the last of the four added quarter notes, the ghost tie appears in the same place as before (this is now at the beginning of M26).

Breakfast looms.

Later.

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

Hi, RC,

At this point, all I can suggest to ameliorate this problem is to rearrange the measure setup so that tie between C4 half notes does not have to run between systems.

******

I note that if I delete the piano track, the ghost tie cannot be made to appear.

If I then add a new (and so far empty) piano track below the trombone track, the ghost tie still cannot be made to appear.

I further note that if I delete all the notes from the treble staff of the existing piano track (by selection from the left margin), the ghost tie cannot be made to appear.

if I delete all the notes from the treble staff of the piano track (by selection of the notes "by marquee", one system at a time), the ghost tie can still be made to appear.

Very curious.

Later.

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

In my next exercise, I deleted all the notation from the treble staff of the piano track two systems worth at a time, using Click--Shift-click to select a range of measures. After I had done this through M83, the ghost tie was suddenly no longer seeable.

Then I restored the notation, one batch at a time, with "Undo". I was able to restore a large portion of the notation (until it was present from M13 onward) before the ghost tie was again seeable.

Well, soon off to Thanksgiving dinner.

Alan
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by DrLeonard »

I applied a klutzy fix and got rid of the problem. I added a 128th rest ahead of the first note in measure 25, and then made it invisible. Now the hidden "tie" or "slur" can't connect to that first note of measure 25, and it will sound. There's no audible or visual effect of that 128th rest, it is so short.

It is true that Overture has a problem with ties over a system break. Sometimes they cause a note not to play, if it is tied to one or more notes extending over a system break (and maybe not even over a system break). You can sometimes fix it by deleting the note and adding it back in. You can also sometimes fix it by moving the note to the right, away from the bar line, but usually that won't hold. When I record something with ties like that, I have to listen to the piece to make sure the phenomenon has not occurred. It is a problem I hope will be corrected in a future release -- as is the problem of not being able to enter notes directly into the bass clef staff of a piano part. In this piece I had to enter the notes below the staff and then slide them up with an arrow key.
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Re: Can't Remove "Hidden Slur" (or "Tie")

Post by TenorAlan »

Hi, RC,
DrLeonard wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:56 pm I applied a klutzy fix and got rid of the problem. I added a 128th rest ahead of the first note in measure 25, and then made it invisible. Now the hidden "tie" or "slur" can't connect to that first note of measure 25, and it will sound. There's no audible or visual effect of that 128th rest, it is so short.
Very nice!

Alan
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