Instrument doubling

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fabiolcati
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Instrument doubling

Post by fabiolcati »

How does Overture 5 deal with instrument doubling (eg. Oboe and English Horn)?
Searched forums and manual with different keywords, but I can't find it.
I use VSL SE for playback.

Thank you
TenorAlan
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by TenorAlan »

Greetings,
fabiolcati wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:17 am How does Overture 5 deal with instrument doubling (eg. Oboe and English Horn)?
Searched forums and manual with different keywords, but I can't find it.
I use VSL SE for playback.
I'm not sure just what aspect of that situation you are asking about.

Do you want to be able to notate the parts for two instruments (separately) on the same staff? Or do you want one set of notes to be played in unison by two instruments? Or do you want to easily switch from having the notation on one staff to be played by one instrument or the other on different play sessions?

Best regards,

Alan
fabiolcati
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by fabiolcati »

Hi Alan.
A single player switching from Oboe to English Horn on the same staff, that's what i'm looking for.
Best
PeteFine
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by PeteFine »

Add the Eng Hn to the staff in the normal way. Change it to voice 3, leaving the 1st oboe at voice 1 and 2nd oboe at voice 3 (with their matching midi channels). In ASO (I'm sure VSL has similar) use the "tune" knob to transpose the Eng Hn to -7.00 (a fifth lower). Now all notes entered as voice 3 will sound Eng Hn at the correct pitch.
However, there is a bug I just posted about. Though they play back correctly, after you stop playback and click on the Eng Hn notes to edit them, they will sound at concert pitch, i.e. like voice 1. This should not be. Even if the last selection was voice 3 or voice 1, any note clicked on should sound at the pitch that voice's instrument was set to. One should not have to constantly switch between voices (ctl 1 ctl 2 ctl 3, etc) to check the parts.
fabiolcati
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by fabiolcati »

Thank you for your reply, Pete.
I expected something more straightforward, but I'll give it a try tomorrow.
It seems I need to edit VSL presets to have the same VI instance host two different instruments (eg. load both Oboe and EH matrices and add a command to tell Ov5 switch to the proper one)
In "another" notation program I have the two on discrete staves (EH one being hidden) and a "instrument change" command placing the name of the doubling instrument at desired bar; from there on, and until you get back to Oboe, the staff works as EH, both notation wise and audio wise.
Same for flute and piccolo or any other orchestral weapon, of course.
I forgot, where are Sound Maps files located? I'm curious about their structure.
Thanks again.
Best
Merv
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by Merv »

Are you using VI or the new Synchron player? Either way you will need to use ‘Vienna Ensemble’ from within Overture to load both instruments then assign a Channel 1 and a Channel 2 on your track within Overture. You can switch instruments on the one track by switching Voices within Overture. It would be ‘Voice 1 Channel 1’ for Oboe and ‘Voice 2 Channel 2’ for English Horn.

I don’t know if this is what you’re referring to. This method works well for me.
fabiolcati
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by fabiolcati »

Hi Merv. Thank you for your reply.
I'm on regular Vienna Instruments, not Synchron.
As you suggested, going Vienna Ensemble is the answer.
Now to learn how to set up VE inside Overture…
Cheers.
Merv
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by Merv »

Choose Vienna Ensemble like any other instrument. Right click in a track. In the ‘Choose Instrument’ dialog go to the ‘Output Device’ panel and choose ‘Software Instrument’. Choose ‘VSL’ and select ‘Vienna Ensemble x64’. This came free with your VSL purchase. You could use Vienna Ensemble Pro if you have it. Beside the ‘Library:’ header it should say ‘Vienna Special Edition’. If it doesn’t, select it. Now just click ‘Done’ in the upper right corner. Vienna Ensemble 6 will now load (give it a few seconds) and you can proceed to populate it. In some cases you will need VEP if you’re mixing and matching different libraries. Overture handles all this with ease. Within Overture all you have to do now is sync the instrument channel assignments in your Inspector pane and you’re good to go.
PeteFine
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by PeteFine »

I am not familiar with Vienna, so if the English Horn patch is already transposed, by default, then that would be all you need to do. If, however, it is not and you want to notate it at the correct written pitch, you will need to transpose it within Vienna since OV's track inspector does not allow for different transpositions on the same staff.
TenorAlan
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by TenorAlan »

Hi, Pete,
PeteFine wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:45 pm . . . since OV's track inspector does not allow for different transpositions on the same staff.
For what its worth, if by "transposition" we mean "playback offset", we can set that to be different for each voice on a track. (This is done on the "pitch" column on what I call the "voice table" in Inspector>Track>Playback:Output Device.)

That may not fit in at all with this "project" (I haven't followed all the bidding!).

Best regards,

Alan
PeteFine
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by PeteFine »

You are correct. My error. That is another way to accomplish the transposing of a second instrument on the same staff. Thank you.
Pete
TenorAlan
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by TenorAlan »

There's something I don't understand about this. It must be that these instruments are being notated in player part pitch, else it would not be necessary to have different play transpositions for them. If they were notated at sounding pitch (commonly described as "concert pitch"), then I can't see why there would need to be different play transpositions for them.

If that is so, it would seem that there would have to be different key signatures for the two instruments. Which of course we can't do on one staff.

What am I missing here?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Alan
PeteFine
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by PeteFine »

We have the option of notating a score in concert pitch with any instrument, by setting the voice transpose/part parameters to 0, then correcting the part to its traditional notation after extracting it. This is not what is traditionally done of course. Orchestral scores for the past 2 or 3 centuries have notated horns a fifth above sounding (concert) pitch, Bb clarinets a whole step above, etc. This tradition came out of the desire to keep most notes on the staff and negate the need for lots of ledger lines (though for some reason certain instruments have evolved that often need many ledger lines- tuba, flute for instance).
With the ability to change the transposition of a voice (either in track inspector or the library's instrument menu) we can indeed notate 2 instruments on a staff in different keys/transpositions as we have just pointed out, and this will allow OV to playback correctly while also enabling one to extract the parts correctly to give to the players. So the 2nd oboist can have all notes written correctly and when he/she switches to Eng Hn the part will still be correct.
To be honest, I don't recall if this is normally done. I believe it is more common to put the Eng Hn on a separate staff. However, can OV extract both staffs to one part?? And is this even an accepted way to do things? I have a couple of scores with the 2nd oboist switching to Eng Horn and I prefer to do it all at transposed pitch rather than concert pitch, even if the harmonies between the two players on one staff "look" wrong.
fabiolcati
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Re: Instrument doubling

Post by fabiolcati »

Alan, Peter, thank you for your replies.
Lot of useful information there, both in handling it in Ov and in common practice.
I'll dig into adding Vienna Ensemble to my workflow.
This thing called Track inspector looks powerful…
Best
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