Community

Where Overture and Score Writer users interact
It is currently Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:10 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:04 pm 
Offline
Super User

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:37 pm
Posts: 768
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Don, I would like to suggest a future feature,admittedly lacking programming knowledge and what is involved from your perspective, but if implemented this would make OV a clear choice in producing playable parts for large works (symphony orchestra specifically). It is a fact that producing parts is the most tedious (and non-creative) aspect of finalizing any symphonic performance.
OV5 already excels at producing Master Scores and virtual playback.

In a post some time back, I detailed the issues I (and other OV users) have had with OV's method of producing parts for real players. Here is the link
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=20905

There are workarounds but very time consuming. I have since talked to a couple of other composers who use other notation software and they gripe about the same tedious methods of achieving parts for multiple players on a single staff, etc.

I have had 8 full orchestra works performed, a few as long as 40 minutes, using Overture over the years. So I speak from experience.

Again, not having programming background, this is merely a USER'S suggestion.

The Part Extraction expressions a1, a2, etc should, if possible, act as intuitively and accurately as articulations act- that is, a1 should "trigger" OV to automatically notate all entries following it as Voice 1 only, until another part extraction expression is entered, just as pizz is in effect until arco is entered (for example). ( I realize keyswitching is a different process ). "a2" should automatically enter all notes following it as both Voice 1 and Voice 2 with the same ease.
Then, when choosing the active parts, there should be not only a list of the tracks, but of the voices, so that one can easily select which voice to extract,edit, or print as is. (An additional Paste as Cue choice "On All Voices" would be nice as well, so that a cue only needs to be pasted once on one of the voices to be present in both player's parts.)
I have worked with the present method of adding another instrument to a part, assigning voices extract to the various part extraction expressions, using the divisi popup menus. It is really confusing, and non-intuitive. a1, a2, etc. are not obscure, esoteric functions. They are extremely frequent in symphonic scores and should be functional as default.

In short, part designations such as a1 and a2 should work easily and as expected once entered into the master score, either right "out of the box" or with very minimal tweaking, just as any other expression does. Producing and printing individual parts should be as easy as playing back a master score.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:35 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3779
Location: Isle of Palms, SC
https://sonicscores.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=19611&view=previous

_________________
Don
Leader of the Band


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:53 pm 
Offline
Super User

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:37 pm
Posts: 768
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Yes! That was great having the issue addressed and my joy was evident!
Having used it, I am suggesting a more intuitive and "automatic" way to make the a1, a2 etc. work, by default, the way they should when one later needs to extract parts...if it is possible for the next version of OV.


Last edited by PeteFine on Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:39 am 
Offline
Super User

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:37 pm
Posts: 768
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Here is another limitation with the current part extraction method...
When working with an Active Part, one cannot currently use many editing features (multi rest, etc...) until the active part is saved as a new score. So this eliminates being able to add multi rests to both voices on the staff, with is very common (clarinets resting for many measures, for instance...). Instead, I have to create a new part for the 2nd clarinet (2nd voice), add divisi preferences for both, save both parts as new scores, then add multi rests to both parts individually. Same with cues, which are commonly the same for both players on a staff... I would have to save each part and add the cues to both individually (I suggested in an earlier post a future improvement- a drop down menu for selecting multiple parts to add the same cue to. Another very common need.)

When I said that the part extraction method currently implemented, though functional, was tedious and cumbersome, these are just a couple of things I was referring to.

Admittedly ignorant of what is possible from a programming perspective, I just feel that when creating a orchestral score, where many staves have 2 or more instruments, the a1, a2 expressions (which are as common as pizz, arco, and Tempo changes in a score) should have powerful, global, intuitive functions that allow an easy method of finalizing the individual parts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:58 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:33 pm
Posts: 176
Location: Hallowell Maine USA
well we are all a work in progress.
I have always had a hard time with parts and score.
and somewhere I re call don saying yes active part to score needs wk, although I am not going to take the time to copy and paste that comment.
Sadly, (really don't want to) but I make the move to dorico, just for the ease of parts and score..

_________________
James M. Johnson
Windows 10 (most recent)
Komplete Audio 6
ASO, VSL, Kontakt 5
Overture 5, Dorico 3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:59 pm 
Offline
Super User

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:37 pm
Posts: 768
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
I have yet to find a notation program (I am not familiar with Dorico but tried Finale, Sibelius...) that compares to Overture's ease of producing good looking and great sounding Master Scores. But the parts production/extraction capabilities are miles behind.
The lack of sophistication in OV5's part production/separation/extraction area is made more glaring by how good the Master Score abilities are.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:18 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3779
Location: Isle of Palms, SC
I'll give you all a test.

Tell me exactly how you would want the part extraction to work, and then tell me the program that does it like that.
I am not talking about making changes to the extracted part, just the extraction itself.

_________________
Don
Leader of the Band


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:17 am 
Offline
Super User

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:37 pm
Posts: 768
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Thanks for asking, Don. I'll gladly take the "test". But first let me state that I cannot say, and never have, that any other program does it better. What I HAVE said, repeatedly, is that if Overture could succeed in making these processes easy, intuitive, and quick, it would be the undisputed choice for producing performable large ensemble works, from start (Master Score) to finish (individual parts). As most of the discussion on this forum seems to be about midi playback and other functions involving the master score, I understand that these aspects have not received as much attention and are not as developed as the Master Score features.

Here are my suggestions for improving the part extraction, followed by what I consider critical (most frequently needed) editing improvements.
I know you (and most on this forum) are quite well versed in notation practices but I'll ask your patience in allowing me to state even obvious things, for the purpose of clarity.

1- When entering a1, a2, etc, the program should automatically enter the notes following as voice 1 only (a1), or both voices (a2), etc. in the same manner that it would if I hit Ctl 1,entered notes, then copied and pasted those notes as Ctl 2. (Tutti, solo having similar functions). When entering 2 non-unison parts one would of course have to use ctl 1, ctl 2 to enter them. (a keyboard Shortcut for a1. a2 would be nice as well)

2- There should also be Part Extraction symbols for I, II, III which would automatically enter the notes following in only that voice without having to hit anything. (I have never seen an orchestral score with more than 3 instruments sharing one staff and 2 is the most common by far). This voice assignment would stay in effect until another part extraction symbol was entered, so all notes following the a2 would be seen as both voices/parts/players until a1 is entered, etc.

3-When extracting the individual parts (call it voice 1 and voice 2, or player 1, player 2... All notes entered as a2 would automatically be extracted to both parts and all notes entered as a1 would automatically be extracted to only the 1st voice/part, including the dynamic markings that were entered in the master score while their part was active.


I realize there are other part extraction functions that are occasionally needed, and those options are in the Part Extraction menu, but the ones I have outlined are the most frequently used "part indicating" symbols in any orchestral score.

Now- for the improvement of editing and time-saving... a few suggestions...

1- A checkbox drop down menu for "paste as cue" so that a cue may be pasted into multiple parts (staves) with automatic transposition for that particular instrument. Currently, if I need to give a cue to 20 staves while their is a long clarinet solo, I have to paste it 20 times.
2- The ability for the master score to reflect the edits made to changes in the part (minus cues of course). This should be globally selectable in case you don't want the Master Score to reflect these changes.
3-The ability to perform multi-rests in the active part BEFORE extraction so that both players/voices can have the same multi-rest (extremely common).
4- A Part Extraction menu or Active Parts menu that shows each stave/track followed by each voice on that staff.
5- The ability to extract multiple staves onto a single part (if this is already available I apologize for my ignorance). For instance, having the percussionist be able to see the timpani part as a separate staff underneath the percussion part.

Thank you for your attention. I can truly say that, as a composer who fights hard to get a performance of a large work, I always enjoy composing with Overture, until the task of producing printable parts. That task is not creative and satisfying like composing and hearing playback of a score, but still necessary, and anything to take the tedium out of it would be a blessing.

Pete


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:27 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3779
Location: Isle of Palms, SC
Quote:
then tell me the program that does it like that.

_________________
Don
Leader of the Band


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:48 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 473
Location: Canada
Perhaps Overture can be the first one … maybe not now, but sometime in the future … just like Overture was the first notation program to include DAW-like capabilities in a meaningful way (and made other substantive changes to the way music could be notated).

When I perceive that part extraction might be an issue when rough sketching a composition, I don’t allow two of the same instruments to share a staff. This avoids all shorts of potential issues when it comes to part extraction and printing. For example, instead of Trumpet I having its own staff and Trumpet II & III sharing a common staff I just use 3 individual staves – one each for trumpets I, II, III. This way I avoid using more than one voice, and can more easily blend different library samples to achieve a more robust section sound. This works fine for small ensembles, but obviously would be unacceptable in the large orchestral scores that Pete works with – my needs are far more modest.

Anyway, I just thought that I would contribute to the topic.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:41 am 
Offline
Super User

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:37 pm
Posts: 768
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Don,
I stated in the first line of my response that I do not know a program that does it better. I am amazed (the word doesn't do justice) at the level of programming genius, coupled with understanding of music that you have in order to create this program.
The fact that no program does it better is irrelevant. The request, and SPECIFIC suggestions I made, would be a huge improvement to Part extraction and editing functions, which lags far behind the ease, shortcuts, and intuitiveness when composing a master score.

Literally EVERY composer I talk to who has worked on a large ensemble score says the same thing about preparing parts. It is the worst part of finalizing a work for performance, specifically because no program "does it better".


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group