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 Post subject: layering question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:50 pm 
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In my manuscript, I have a contralto sing a half note followed by a bass singing a quarter note that is to overlap the second half. The bass sings for less than three measures, so I really didn't want to add another staff to do it (using the vocal solo with piano template). I hit Ctrl-2 and put a bass clef on the staff, but it appeared as if it were on layer 1. This sort of thing is not unusual for published opera vocal scores, but it's not letting me put the bass's first note earlier than after the contralto finishes.


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:24 pm 
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scottandrewhutchins wrote:
In my manuscript, I have a contralto sing a half note followed by a bass singing a quarter note that is to overlap the second half. The bass sings for less than three measures, so I really didn't want to add another staff to do it (using the vocal solo with piano template). I hit Ctrl-2 and put a bass clef on the staff, but it appeared as if it were on layer 1. This sort of thing is not unusual for published opera vocal scores, but it's not letting me put the bass's first note earlier than after the contralto finishes.

Your description makes it hard to know exactly what you are trying to do. You speak of a contralto singing a half note and then you speak of wanting to have the bass sing a quarter note that overlaps the "second half". Do you mean that the bass is to sing in the second half of the measure? Or that his note overlaps part of the contralto's note? Or what?

In any case, I think we can't have a different clef in effect for the separate voices on a track. Any inline clef affects all voices. All inline clefs show up as in if in voice 1 (as you observed).

Also, if we want a note on a voice to start other than at the beginning of the measure, we must put appropriate rests in front of it.

Cheers,

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Mr. Hutchins, here is your score with your bass voice on measures 20 through 22 sounding. You have an incorrect rhythm in measure 20/Voice 2. You also need to assign 2 voices to your lyric line if you're going to interject this second voice.

Attachment:
Wilma Calvin (with bass singing).ovex [16 KiB]
Downloaded 11 times


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:57 pm 
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What is the incorrect rhythm? It looks like you didn't change it. The point was that his first note comes on the second beat of the measure, but she is still singing.


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Mr. Hutchins, my intention was only to point out your error in measure 20 – I’m not going to correct it as well – that’s your job (consider it a learning experience). While you’re at it you can also correct these other rhythmic errors if you wish; in measure 8 (piano bass line), measure 9 (stray 16th rest), measure 20 (voice 2 is 1/32 off). If you watch your dynamic beat count as measure 20 plays you will notice a partial sixth beat. There are a couple of ways you can change your note overlap issue. This is what I would do…

You can easily simplify your score by getting rid of that second voice in measures 20 to 22. You don’t need 2 voices in those measures to accomplish your purpose with that clef change. On the beat before the bass cuts in you can alter your midi data to extend the length of that note. This is done after you change everything to one voice then turn that half note into a quarter note.

Alan mentions that your description makes it difficult to visualize what you’re trying to do. Like him, I can’t make heads or tails out of it – especially the measure 20 timing issue and your use of 2 voices. I would happily correct your score, but the musical effect that you’re after in measure 20 simply baffles me.


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:03 pm 
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You don't understand that I want the contralto to continue singing for another beat as the bass comes in? Changing it to a quarter note makes no sense if I want her to sing two beats.


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:07 am 
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Scott,
I would like to ask a question and add a comment as someone having decades of experience in being fortunate enough to have many orchestral works performed by anything from excellent to "okay" ensembles. I hope this won't sound preachy nor disrespectful- it certainly isn't intended to be.

This score is very original, unique and challenging. Question- is it meant for sound library playback or actual performance? I ask because, although the score, after the timing corrections, will play accurately, thanks to the technology of notation software and midi, it will be exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to learn and perform by any musicians I have encountered. (This is a practical consideration for most composers.) Going from 5/4 to 23/32 (for 1 measure) and then to 3/4, for instance, while also concentrating on the challenging aspects of the melodic line, may make it, although a great effect if pulled off, nearly impossible to achieve. I believe the desired effect can be accomplished by using syncopation within more common (and performable) time signatures, or less drastic time signature sequences. (Think of Stravinsky- Rite of Spring for example, where a very non-linear rhythmic effect is achieved in sections through syncopation, rests, etc. still challenging but with much less radical time signatures).

When producing parts for musicians, one must weigh the readability against the effect and find something that achieves both. (Unless one has no limits of time and money perhaps... )
And we are talking about finding not just one amazing soloist to learn it, but an ensemble, correct?

If you can consider, without compromising your creativity, stretching out some notes i.e. rounding out,for example, a 16th to an 8th or a 32nd to a 16th to avoid as many, and such esoteric, time signatures sequences, the effect and readability can be greatly enhanced. (Unless it is only going to be played by software, which of course is mathematically perfect. I often tell conductors when giving them my Overture playback to let them hear a work, "Please pardon the less expressive sound library versus your real orchestra, but my guys never make a mistake!")
I admire your creative drive and original voice. The goal is to pull it off, and readability is a big help there.
Respectfully,
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:59 am 
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In Mr. Fines post he defines your score as original, unique and challenging. Pete’s credentials have been proven to be reliable in the real world of music production, and I respect his expertise and musical knowledge. He is a reliable source of information and a kind human being.

However, I would respectfully disagree with PeteFine’s overly generous analysis of your work. I would say that most of your scores are confusing, pretentious and baffling. They are fraught with errors and notational inconsistencies.

Who will or can perform this work? Who will decipher this odd mixture of timing incongruities? On so many levels, the error’s in your score defy description. This is not Overture’s problem, it’s yours.

Pete very generously says that he admires your creative drive and original voice, but I only see confusion and a tendency to copy. The musical language you speak is not the same as mine – sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Merv, when you're only seeing portions that are unfinished or have difficulties, I would expect you to see errors and so forth, many of which have been corrected. I caught a lot of the errors in the segment in question as I proofread and played back, so the current version is attached. As the opera is less than half complete and I am mostly self-taught, I am sure there is a long way to go until a final version.


Attachments:
Wilma Calvin work in progress.pdf [264.49 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:25 pm 
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I stand by my suggestions. The timing and melodic extremes are going to be unplayable by human beings. However, you, as the composer, can choose to ignore that.
Best of luck,
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:52 pm 
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Thank you for your general advice, Peter, but I don't know what that has to do with a contralto singing a quarter note when I want a half note.


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:28 pm 
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Greetings, Scott,
scottandrewhutchins wrote:
. . . I don't know what that has to do with a contralto singing a quarter note when I want a half note.

I'd jump in here, but I seem to recall not being sure just what you were trying to do when you first described this need.

Maybe you could describe it again. Maybe a hand-drawn score (quel horreur!) would help.

Cheers.

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:43 pm 
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But Mr. Hutchins, please refer to the score I submitted earlier. Your half note in measure 20 in Voice 1 does ring out for 2 beats. It overlaps the bass quarter note that is in Voice 2. If you go to Data View you can plainly see the midi overlap. If you want it to sound for an even longer duration you can just adjust your midi data while your cursor in on your vocal track. It’s very easy to do.


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:49 pm 
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Scott,
What it "has to do" with it is somewhat related to my first reply to your post- the need to follow traditional norms at least to the extent that it is readable by musicians... If I am understanding your problem... if you have a bass solo part, you should put it on a separate staff, rather than trying to use a 2nd voice on the contralto staff. You can create a staff, if even for one page, which will be the clearest way for a conductor or performer to understand the score. In addition, when dealing with instruments or singers in ranges far apart, (bass and contralto or bassoon and oboe for example) it will eliminate the need for one part being way above or below a staff (since one cannot have two different clefs in the same measure of the same staff), again making it difficult to read.
That is my "overly generous" suggestion :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: layering question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:01 pm 
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I think that three of us (Alan, Pete and myself) are trying to ‘make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear’. Perhaps it’s time to recommend several excellent orchestration books and treatises on composition to our friend, Mr. Hutchins.


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