CC for volume control

Discussion about Amadeus but not bugs.
TenorAlan
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by TenorAlan »

Pete,
PeteFine wrote: What baffles me is why it took me so long to figure this out. :oops:
Don't feel bad. This is very tricky (Duh!) and we have little authentic information to work from.

Alan
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by TenorAlan »

Pete,
PeteFine wrote: So I don't know what controller is in charge of that default instrument output.
I am completely flying blind here, but I suspect that the st. 1 fader is not controlled by any CC.
The idea of inserting phantom dynamics or having to set the dynamics for each track individually, and not be easily adjusted mid score, is not my cup of tea.
Certainly a better situation would be if Overture would let us separately set for each track (a) the CC to be used for the track "base volume", whose value could be set with the slider in the "little mixer" (for working through ASO, we would set that to CC7) and (b) the CC that would by default be the one assigned to dynamic marks (for working through ASO, we wouild set that to CC1).

Alan
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by PeteFine »

Ouch! I thought computers were supposed to save us tedium. I'll stick to simpler is better. After all, this isn't brain surgery (although I might need some before this topic is ended. :D
Merv
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by Merv »

Pete Sound Example ASO.ovex
(271.08 KiB) Downloaded 135 times
Mr. Reed is right. We’ve taken something simple and made it unnecessarily complicated. The Kontakt engine itself can be used to balance instrument volumes or you can do it within Overture. Because you are using ASO Pete, I made this little sample file showing Kontakt being used with ASO and Overture. GM is an entirely different ball game as are other libraries with their different sample engines. These settings once finalized can then be used in your orchestral template.

It was stated earlier that separate instances of Kontakt would be required for each track. This is inaccurate. If you are going to use Kontakt to control an instruments relative volume within a mix you may as well control it from within the Kontakt engine and include all the instruments in one instance of Kontakt until you’re forced to run a second instance. One instance is better than 16 and fine tuning of each instruments base volume is far easier and more convenient because you can operate the sliders on the go. Open your Kontakt window in the enclosed score to see how this is accomplished and keep that window open as you play the enclosed score.

Another thing I have found very helpful - I have found that the dynamic spread between the loudest and quietest volumes is too narrow. Since I never use fff or ppp I set my range for pp at 20 and I sometimes max out my ff at 127 depending on the instrument or ensemble being used. This means that my pp is very quiet and my ff is very loud; adjusted to taste of course! I like it when there is more definition between each dynamic. If you open your Overture mixer you’ll see that I applied a little bit of Overture’s reverb to the ‘Full Choir’. I usually use Spaces II (EW), but Overture does a pretty decent sounding job with judiciously applied reverb. This way it can all be done within Overture and is easier and more convenient with faster loading times. Of course, the final mix will use a more robust reverb.

If you solo each instrument in turn and play with your midi keyboard’s mod wheel you’ll notice the bar graphic going up and down within the Kontakt interface. If you play all instruments at once you can fine tune the balance of each individual instrument within the mix as your score is playing – this is also very helpful. You do this within the Kontakt interface by using the tiny little output sliders. (Try maxing out some of the instruments but be careful if you’re using headphones) This will give you a ‘real time’ sense of your sound levels per instrument as your score is being played. I have also found this to be very helpful especially if I have a featured soloist that will be standing in front of the orchestra and closer to the audience. Other (unnamed) libraries have different mike positions to mimic this effect. Once you’ve found your desired sweet spot and right balance between instruments just save your score. I also close the ‘Output’ pane in Kontakt as it is not needed anymore and takes up quite a bit of real-estate in the Kontakt window.

Your DAW might give you somewhat better control, but Overture is quite powerful when used in conjunction with ASO and Kontakt and I find that I can do 99 percent of my work in Overture alone. Anyway… this is the way I work, but I’ll say it once again; there are often many ways to do a thing in Overture and regular users will quickly fixate on their favorite way, and this includes control over volume and dynamics with GM, ASO or any other (unnamed) library/engine combination.
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Don
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by Don »

Thank you Merv,

It seems that others don't understand today's world of computers, sample libraries, etc..
They insist that the software is the problem, when in fact is that their knowledge has not been upgraded in 20 years.
Don
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PeteFine
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by PeteFine »

I will give Don credit where credit is due (considering how much I complain when it IS justified). He is correct- I did not fully understand the functions built into ASO and Kontakt. I did not know that you could create outputs for each instrument within the instance. And you are very correct (and I thank you for it) about the convenience of keeping as much as possible within one instance.

However, what, then, is the purpose of the main slider on top of each instrument? It does not move as the dynamic marks come into play and it adjusts overall volume the same as the output sliders below....
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Don
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by Don »

That is mainly a MIDI mixer, so it send what ever is assigned as a MIDI controller for volume.
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TenorAlan
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Re: CC for volume control

Post by TenorAlan »

wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:33 pm If that is the default dynamic controller as Bill says, or CC#7 since it does not move when I set dynamics to CC#7.
The following specifically refers to play through a MIDI-oriented synthesizer, but probably pertains to operation through ASO as well.

In general, if the Controller set to be used for Volume Control (in Edit Dynamics) is CC7, then:

• The initial track volume is set at the commencement of play by a CC7 at the level set by the slider in the "little mixer".

• All dynamic marks that are deposited initially have the volume controller choice set to CC7, and (unless that is changed) that CC is used to send the assigned volume level for the dynamic mark when that mark is encountered during play.

That of course means that when the first dynamic mark is encountered, the "base track volume" (as set with the slider on the "little mixer") is lost. That slider setting will have no further effect on overall track volume.

But if during play we move the slider on the "little mixer", CC7 messages are sent, the last one being at the level where we leave the slider. That will change the track volume accordingly.

But as soon as another dynamic is encountered, the effect of that setting is lost.

Which is why the dynamics should be executed with another CC, CC11 being the one that is suggested by many authorities, but in some cases CC1 is used. But is is tedious to do that with current Overture.

Alan
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